Forum:Chat Rules and chatmods, the harm to this wiki
Forum closed See the "Major update" section below for final information and why this forum has been closed. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 05:11, April 10, 2012 (UTC) Please hold off on adding any new comments for the moment. I am looking into the issue now. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 17:13, January 7, 2012 (UTC) :Also, you can sign your name in the Community section to show your support opinion Aislinghope 23:32, January 7, 2012 (UTC) Problems with chatmods and rules Since some admins and chatmods simply don't understand what the true Wiki chat is for whom and for what and since chatmods want to apply the draconian Chat Rules as well as an extension of policy and Block Policyon this Wiki and since there was bad chatmods here, I've set up this page to show them just who are against and don't like their way. This isn't a vote, and it's not really a petition. It's merely comments from all of Wiki community. If you would like to take a look on the list of rules, visit this User:Bpendragon/sandbox:ChatRules, a sandbox of a chatmod. Why would anyone want to set the disembodied rules for chat room of the whole community? Turn it into the kingdom where they are kings. Why don't we simplify things? Make it fun and friendly, Wikia's friendly rules, Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Simplified ruleset and Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Chat#Simplified Regulations are enough and better. The first, "Federal law is that you must be 13 years of age to register for Wikia, if you are discovered to be under this age you will be summarily kicked and blocked for the appropriate amount of time, administrators will be notified and they will block you on the site for the same amount of time." Just want you to know, kicking users who being COPPAs is inconsistent with Wikia's IRC rules, even againsts them. Back to this On-wiki Wikia chat, chatmods will ask users for their ages and kick them immediately if they answer they are "under 13". That is the cruel chatmod, the most typical is Isabella and Lego Liker. "Must be 13 years of age to register for Wikia", whatever they have against the Wikia's terms or not, they are joking or seriously, that problem belongs to Wikia. Also Wikia has collected a number of confidential information from users, and you don't need to collect from them by asking. You do not have any right to prohibit their conversation with the community. "If you are discovered to be under this age you will be summarily kicked and blocked for the appropriate amount of time", by asking them a question of their ages? Oh, please, stop right now. Off-topic, discussion about up-coming, roleplaying,… are not allowed. An example, Patrickau26 talked to everyone about the off-topic interesting program that he has been playing, and that was community talk. But, Bpendragon noticed him, Patrickau has been turned to a rulebreaker. Debating about the worst of rules and arguing with the bad chatmods when we have the right arguments are not wrong, they are our expression and simple in order to make wiki more better, but the chatmod will kick you soon. We can share our thinking, interesting about us, build the friendship between users, and talk anything we like except the profanity and prohibited contents, no spam, no swear, no advertising. Let us have fun and know each others with a lot of issues and friendship of each Phineas and Ferb Wikians. Chat for the community, not community for the chat. Welcome. :::—by the User of the Year, Isabella and Lego Liker, also known as a "very powerful" chatmod. :::—by the Father of the rules, Bpendragon. It's a very typical example in the answer of the question: what is the "true chatmod"? Chatmods here, some are boasting of their power, the king of the kingdom. Also, "the moderators of the channel only give out two warnings before a kick ban" (citation from Bpendragon's rules), but what is the true here? Users will be kicked immediately when they commit to something that is offensive to the chatmods, with "No WARNING". I can be the greatest example with 3 times for being kicked while I did not do anything wrong. I always wonder, how can the great adopter "Topher208" and the best admin "RRabbit42" let those bad guys be the great chatmods in this wiki? Ignore the consent of the community? Because of bias, because they are already rollbacker, so they can protect the chat room? Because they are famous editors? Because they are ones of the first users who appeared in the chat room? Because of their contribution? Because someone nominates them….. Oh, let's see, RRabbit42, the symbol of calmness, experience, that is great, but patience and calm, those bad chatmods don't have, just a little bit. Isabella and Lego Liker is the most famous chatmod here, his big dark famous history is unknown to the new user like MysteriousForce. So, many people know IaLL, I don't want to discuss about this User of the Year. Becoming a chatmod is very easy to this guy. Hey, advice for you, "don't mess with him", like I cite his quote. Bpendragon, this user will be famous soon when the sandbox will become the official policy to this wiki. Rules, rules and rules. IRC is different from Wikia chat, if you "Thank You to Lord-Blazer owner of the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic IRC channel, #EquestrianStudy on the irc.canterlot.org IRC server for letting us use and modify his rules", you must follow the Wikia's IRC rules first, kicking users for being COPPAs is bad. PlantyThePottedPlant, is worse than AgentGoldfish (by AgentGoldfish), Planty does not understand the chat situations and will kick you if you make mistakes, like Isabella and Lego Liker. Agent Goldfish, the best in those bad chatmods, who have lost my faith in him about the great chatmod, has kicked me the third time, with a stupid reason. Many things I would like to tell you more. Heartfelt words sent to admins: Before you do anything to promote chatmod, please think many times and carefully, what you doing. There are 2 choices for this wiki: *First, turn off the Wikia chat feature, no rules, no chatmods, no fun, this will would be lame and we are here to read and countribute the contents of this wiki. That is a good way to stop this madness. *Second, you must find the way to solve these 2 problems, make this wiki more friendly, better and welcome. End, my purposes of this page *Chat rules: No draconian rules, no draconian chat rules everyone, no Bpendragon's rules, let's make it fun and friendly, Wikia's rules, Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Simplified ruleset and Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Chat#Simplified Regulations are enough and better. Let's make this wiki friendly and welcome. *Chatmods: Some bad chatmods here should be warned and revoked their chatmod rights, practice patience and calm. They should review their attitudes and actions, think thoroughly and make sure before doing anything. Simply sign your name in the appropriate section to show your support opinion. And leave comments in the comment section if you like. Administrators of Phineas y Ferb Español Wiki #Agree, I can say that the same thing that happened to the Ben 10 Wiki In Spanish is happening to this wiki, I only can describe it with one word:Strictness.File:Invasor Zim 10.gif 15:32, January 7, 2012 (UTC) Administrators of Phineas e Ferb Português do Brasil Wiki #Well, I agree with your arguments. I don't join the chat here usually, but, by the times I visited, I can see of what you're talking about. Greetings from Brazil! Best, Diovos (talk) 14:02, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #I agree with you. I'm supporting! TheMatheusoares 15:10, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #I agree with you, wiki's for users. PeF001 20:08, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Agreed. Many chatmods block people for stupid reasons! The chat has maked for fun! Greetings, 12:28, January 9, 2012 (UTC) Administrators of Fineasz i Ferb Polski Wiki #Of course I'm with you. Dear mods - please notice, that wiki is for users, not users for wiki. If you want to destroy community - you're on the great way to do it. Support from Poland. --pozdrawiam, [[User:Finealt|'Finealt']] - [[User_talk:Finealt|''pisz w razie wątpliwości...]] 15:22, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #I agree with you too. [[User:Sara124|'Sara124']] 16:26, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Me too Fretkoid 17:53, January 9, 2012 (UTC) Administrators of Phineas và Ferb Wiki Tiếng Việt #I support for you, Aisling •♪•♪•♪• Xiao Qiao '(☎ leave a message ♪)' 07:53, January 7, 2012 (UTC) Support from the community ''A simply list, just leave your signature here by ~~~~ to show your support #With me, I would like to see the friendly of this community Aislinghope 07:52, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Yea, I support the chat rules should be removed, replace is Wikia's friendly guide ♥ [[User:Candace and Phineas|'Isabella Good Wizard']] ♥ So remember, if you wanna get the magical daydream, stay on the yellow sidewalk!... 07:55, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #I'm with u... Trolypac.PAC Cambio y corto! 12:49, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Olithe1st 13:47, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Whetever. Stop SOPA! 17:06, January 7, 2012 (UTC) #Get rid of wiki chat. It would have been good, but because there are idiots who don't follow the rules, it's terrible. Just join the IRC. There's more freedom there. Tpffan leave a message :D 04:40, January 8, 2012 (UTC) #Yes, I support so, no rules, make it friendly and better --- BBunny42 (leave a message) 05:16, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::@Tpffan: If they can. If not, I'll have DisneyWiki's chat open for those who can't. Stop SOPA! 04:43, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::@Tpffan: Hey you, what are you talking about? "because there are idiots who don't follow the rules, it's terrible", do you really know what were you reading?. This forum is about the Terrible rules along with Terrible chatmods, and we are againts them, not follow, please make your true choice. ♥ [[User:Candace and Phineas|'Isabella Good Wizard']] ♥ So remember, if you wanna get the magical daydream, or busting those bad chatmods, make this community friendly and better, STAY ON THE YELLOW SIDEWALK!... 14:58, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::@Isabella mortal: What is "Whetever" meaning? Support us or not? Please define serious what is your choice? ♥ [[User:Candace and Phineas|'Isabella Good Wizard']] ♥ So remember, if you wanna get the magical daydream, or busting those bad chatmods, make this community friendly and better, STAY ON THE YELLOW SIDEWALK!... 14:58, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::@Candace and Phineas: Well, if people didn't roleplay, spam, or cuss, then they wouldn't get banned. In my opinion, I think that the people who don't want rules are just butthurt that they got banned for roleplay and spamming. Tpffan leave a message :D 20:52, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Comments #You're comment here is direct and simple, and now I really get it now. I have to agree of your statement here and that "Bpendragon/sandbox:ChatRules" should be removed since "Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Simplified ruleset" and "Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Chat#Simplified Regulations" has already exist so why this one was created. I rarely go to the chat to talk few things there and to take care some vandal there if there are doing intimidating behavior and Profanity, but due to the statement you wrote that some of the chatmod that were given are being unfair and a little abusive for everyone even for newbies like you even a tinniest statement. You're right about we should conduct an evaluation and make a nomination who should be given a chatmod here, but sometimes things change that old users don't come here anyone and new ones arrive to take their place with little experience. I admit that I promote "IaLL" to have chatmod right due to multiple vandalism in the chat before, that now it's getting complicated there. I would like to resolve this, but I prefer to let "RRabbit42" to handle and resolve this problem since he's a expert on this on the chat and the rules. Patrickau 26 14:48, January 7, 2012 (UTC) : I will start on this today. We have to have a little more for handling things in Chat than we do for the rest of the wiki because different types of problems come up in Chat. For example, if someone new pops up that we haven't seen edit on the wiki before and starts asking what the ages of people are, they may be a predator looking for someone they can meet in real life and mistreat. : Right now, if a person gets kicked out of chat, it's permanent until an admin manually changes it back. Plus, the reason given in the rights log is "User X was kicked by User Y, contact them for details". If an admin sets a block, they can specify how long it is for and give a reason why it happens. I asked Wikia if they could add those kinds of features to the kickban function in Chat. They said Chat definitely needs more work and seemed to like that idea, but there's no guarantee that they will add it. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 16:32, January 7, 2012 (UTC) ::Chatmods, I'm not wrong right, you must be patience and calm, like this admin, please review your attitudes and actions, think thoroughly and make sure before doing anything, sincerely Aislinghope 23:32, January 7, 2012 (UTC) Update from RRabbit42 I just spent the last 6 or so hours working on this. Before I tell you what I came up with, let me address some of the issues here. First, a chatmod, admin or any other person on Chat should not be asking what a person's age is (or any other personal information that can identify who you are in real life). It's not safe to give out that kind of information. And asking what age you are so you can be kicked off the Chat if you're under age is not proper behavior, either. If it happens to come up or slip out in conversation, then we have to deal with it. But to deliberately try to get that information is entrapment and should not happen. Second, for the question of "what is a true chatmod", in my opinion, it's someone who is just supposed to make sure things don't get too far out of hand. There will be times when conversations get a bit silly or wild, but a chatmod should not be waiting to pounce on people and squash all fun. They have to use their judgement to decide whether to let things ride or reel things back in, but there should always be warnings like "hey, guys, can you lay off the Twilight bashing? It's getting annoying." (Or whatever the actual problem is. I just picked that out of the air because it's a popular joke on another site I check frequently.) Third, how did some people get chatmod rights and why did we let this go on for so long? Some have been in the IRC channel for a while and they demonstrated that they would be suitable to be a chatmod. The admins can't be in there all the time, so there has to be additional people who can act in our place. As to letting this go on for a while, for me, some of it is my job is keeping me busy and some of it is because I tend to stay out of Chat to avoid the problem of "the admin's here, we better behave" atmosphere that I've seen on a few places. Maybe most people wouldn't care, but that's what I've felt. Okay, now on to the results. I have something drafted that I'll post a little later tonight. I'll flag it as a "policy review", which means that we can use it for now but some of it will change before it becomes official. There's also sections on requesting chatmod rights and revoking chatmod rights that I still need to work on. Here's how I came up with it: # I looked at what policies and guidelines we already had. # Came up with the sections to cover and filled them in. # Looked at what rules were proposed and used some of them. # Changed the philosophy from rules to guidelines and common sense to encourage more conversations and a less oppressive atmosphere in Chat. # Read this forum in full and the messages on my talk page, then checked to see if there was anything in my draft I needed to cover. Requesting rights and revoking rights were the only ones, but those were already in the still to be done sections. With any new system, it takes a while to figure out how to handle things. It's also a fact of life that social networking features like the Chat are going bring in its share of trolls, vandals, sexual predators and other people that want to cause problems, so we have to have something in place so we know how to deal with them. It's the same reason why we have a block policy: some people just want to cause problems. When I get the policy draft done, I'll post the link here. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 00:36, January 8, 2012 (UTC) :First, even they said "Hey, I'm 10 years old", the chatmods don't have any rights to kick them, true or joking, they would never to do that. Also Wikia has collected a number of confidential information from users, that problem belongs to Wikia, neither you nor chatmods. :Second, the chatmods are you? No, no they aren't. They are not calm, patience in many chat sittuations. Your chatmods are easily upset and angry when someone says about what they dislike. Not calm like you, to resolve the sittuation. Also, kicking without waring is the worst thing. I, me, the greatest example here,3 times for being kicked immediately without warning or reason, while I'm not in wrong. But "Waring" here is not for me, I'm not wrong, so I do not need any warnings. Also, I have been showed on this wiki history, 3 times for being kicked, what will they thing about me? A bad guy vandalized the chat room, where is the kingdom of the bad chatmods? That is the reason made me angry: being showed in wiki history, now, at this moment, I'm in Bannedfromchat group. If you disable the chat, there won't be that log history anymore, then my account will be clean. But that is not my goal. :Third, you have to go through everyone's comments before promoting someone to be a user with a specific right. The person with "famous past" like Isabella and Lego Liker (also known as the User of the year) or the guys with draconian rules or the un calm guy PlantyThePottedPlant, do they deserve to be chatmods? No, also, AgentGoldfish lost my faith in him. You should review it. :"Flag Bpendragon's sandbox as a policy review?" I think Wikia's rules, Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Simplified ruleset and Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Chat#Simplified Regulations are enough and better. :Aislinghope 05:04, January 8, 2012 (UTC) :: Actually, not Bpendragon's sandbox page. A different one: Phineas and Ferb Wiki:Chat behavior and guidelines. There's a couple ideas in there from what he had, but most of it I wrote myself. :: As to kicking people out of chat because they are under age, what we have to be careful about is what would happen if there was a problem with one of those kids and it could be traced back to show we knew they were under age and we allowed it to go on. This hasn't happened yet, but we don't want to get in a situation where Wikia would have to enforce it. So it's better if people don't say it at all so it doesn't happen. :: Before we talk about anything else, everyone should read the new behavior and guidelines page. I think I got a lot of it resolved already, but I need other people to look it over and see if I missed anything. Use its Talk page to discuss the points and offer suggestions on what should be changed. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 09:20, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Reply from Xiao Qiao Your policy is better than that sandbox. Of course, but, it is guidelines, not rules. We could happy to follow those guidelines. Many contents, many thinking, off-topic programs can be shared with community there, for fun and friendship, except the profanity and prohibited contents, no spam, no swear, no advertising. Because Since users who want to boast of their power by creating the list of rules for themselves and getting people to follow, make Chat room to be their castle where they are the kings, that makes "we" angry. They rely on the consent of some admins Topher208 and Ryan Stoppable, to expand their power. Admins said this, Admins said that, Admins agree, Topher and Ryan agree with the rules, which leads them to arrogance. Some users consider themselves neutral or leaning on their side, because of wanting to listen to the administrators. Administrators are always right. But we, all of 6 Phineas and Ferb Affiliated Wiki communities, German, Spanish-Mexican, Netherlands, Polish, Brazilian Portuguese and Vietnamese will not stand for what they abuse, we are together, and bigger than those bad chatmods and 2 admins: Topher and Ryan. We will fight for the friendship, the good of this wiki. We will not give up, and never give up. We are waiting for your official reply, hope that will make "us" satisfied. Now, those bad chatmods can't be leave there alone, you must resolve the problems that come from the chatmods here. Those chatmod statuses must processed between the council. Isabella and Lego Liker, Agent Goldfish, Planty The Potted Plant and Bpendragon, we won't leave them alone. We can forgive them and give them a new chance, if and only if they realize their mistakes, in the cause of this disturbing problem, give their apologies to the people whom were treated badly by them, specially Aislinghope, and set Aislinghope free, while he didn't make any wrong things, set many users free to chat again (bypass the blocked users because of prohitted contents). If they continue obstinate, we will fight to the end. We are waiting and patience, sincerely, •♪•♪•♪• Xiao Qiao (☎ leave a message ♪) 14:20, January 8, 2012 (UTC) :Xiao Qiao, thank you for your support. I would like to notice Topher and Ryan, along with admins who are always right and was listened to by those "neutral" users, let them know what happen. Aislinghope 14:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::"Debating about the worst of rules and arguing with the bad chatmods when we have the right arguments are not wrong, they are our expression and simple in order to make wiki more better, but the chatmod will kick you soon." Yes, I totally agree with you Aislinghope. Because of that, Bpendragon kicked me 1st time. "Planty does not understand the chat situations and will kick you if you make mistakes", I totally agree too, Planty kicked me the 2nd time along with you. Now, they are wrong and making a big mistakes. I will turn their castle to be our community's yard, make it fun and friendly. Planty and Bpendragon should pay for what they have done to me. ♥ [[User:Candace and Phineas|'Isabella Good Wizard']] ♥ So remember, if you wanna get the magical daydream, or busting those bad chatmods, make this community friendly and better, STAY ON THE YELLOW SIDEWALK!... 14:49, January 8, 2012 (UTC) ::From the IRC: 12:34 And when a lot of people see a long list of rules they don't see a list of things that could stop a vandal, but their freedoms being taken away. Even though they are things that they would never sensibly do.12:38 So, I was thinking that, just like the US Constitution, maybe we need a Bill of Rights. ^Seems like a potential solution don't you think? P&I4EVAH! "Dot is a nut so we call her Macademia! She's cracked in the head and she's kooky in the brainia! Each line in this song sounds pretty much the sameia!" Two separate problems What I see is that there are two separate problems. The first is "what is allowed in Chat". The second is chatmods that may be too strict or are abusing their chatmod status. Because we didn't have anything that said what is and is not allowed in Chat, it was left up to whoever was in the Chat with chatmod status to make those decisions. I have tried to correct this by coming up with the list of guidelines that I posted a few hours ago. There will still be a lot of leeway because it's impractical to rigidly define what's acceptable, and if we did that it would be exactly what I am hearing some of you complaining about: "there's too many rules". As I explained on that policy page, we have to have something that everyone can refer to. It isn't to be draconian or a dictatorship. It's just to keep things from getting out of hand and to protect you from strangers that want to harm you. As Dantheman007a pointed out, people aren't realizing that this can happen. Chat makes it easier for these kinds of people to talk to you. Shutting off Chat to keep them away isn't a good answer because the benefits of having a Chat channel outweigh potential problems that they could cause. We used to have quite a bit of problems with vandalism, but since we came up with the Block policy, they get shut down pretty quickly, so they get bored and go somewhere else. That's the same kind of result we will get by having the "what is allowed in Chat" guidelines. After those guidelines are finished, we can look at whether the chatmods are being too strict or abusing their power. It's easy to say "fix it now by taking away their chatmod status". The problem with that is proof. Right now, we don't have anything automatically recording what's going on in Chat. I really don't want to have to put something like that in place. Yes, it would be handy to have in case of disputes. But the other side of that is do you really want everything you say in Chat kept permanently so that anyone can see it? We've got too much of that kind of "big brother" going on in the world as it is. Do we want to add it to the Phineas and Ferb Wiki's Chat? That comes back to the chatmod rights. When you get chatmod rights, it's implied that you are trusted to exercise good judgement when you're in the Chat. If you kick someone off Chat, there needs to be a legitimate reason for doing so. But unfortunately, until Wikia updates the Chat system, all we see is usually "Kick/banned from the chat for this wiki by (chatmod's name). Please contact them for more info." So we're trusting the kickban was valid. What do we do if the chatmod is breaking the trust? How do we figure out if a complaint against them is really a case of someone saying "I got kicked out so I'm going to get back at them by having their rights removed"? What do we do if it's simply a disagreement between two people and one of them is a chatmod? What are the requirements to become a chatmod in the first place? That's what we have to figure out. I don't have an answer for this right now, but I see that we will have to get one soon. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 20:01, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Topher's Take After being alerted to this issue a day or two ago, I have started to look into the matter. First, I would like everyone to take a deep breath and calm down. The admins are here to help you, not to pass unfair rules that nobody likes. We try to come to agreement by reaching consensus, not lording over anyone. Let's try to refrain from using words like "draconian" and calling people "bad guys." This serves no purpose other than to incite more argument and bad blood between people. Everyone is here because they want to help out in this community. Admins can't be everywhere watching everything that happens. If you think you've been treated unfairly, let an admin know. It all boils down to that pillar of wiki usage: "Assume Good Faith." One reason we're having some of these issues is that there isn't any other form of curbing a behavior in chat other than a ban. This is unlike the IRC where there are ways to otherwise silence and simply kick (but not ban) a user who may be getting unruly. The Chat is still in Beta mode (still being tested) and doesn't have all of the tools in place yet. Another reason these issues are happening, isn't the rules themselves necessarily, but the ways chatmods are enforcing them. I have talked to two of our main chatmods and they've agreed to start easing up on the ways they enforce our policies. Until more specific rules are adopted, they are going to use a "three-strikes" approach for minor things like spam and such. This means you'll get two warnings and on the third violation of the rule, you're out. Now for the elephant in the room, COPPA violations. It has always been the working rule as admins to not seek out or harass users that may be in violation of COPPA. As long as users don't advertise their age, admins won't be obligated to enforce compliance with COPPA. We understand that many of our users could be underage, but we're not interested in spending the time to investigate each new user. Today, however, I found out that some chatmods have been asking users their age when they first log into chat. I'm sure their hearts were in the right place. It's a rule after all, right? No one's allowed to use the wiki if they're under 13. Unfortunately, these chatmods were never privy to the admins' unwritten working rule. This has been fixed. The two chatmods who I found out were doing it now know that this is not okay and have agreed to stop. Let's let RRabbt42 work on the revised rules and we'll see how things go. —Topher208 {Talk} 04:37, January 11, 2012 (UTC) Major update During January I was able finish the Chat behavior and guidelines page after an experience where I was on the receiving end of a poor decision. It gave me new perspective on how to handle these issues. All concerns brought up here and in the various messages left to me on my talk page should now be addressed. Since those guidelines will go to a community vote shortly, I am closing this forum. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 05:11, April 10, 2012 (UTC) Chat rules